Zola Kondur has been the voice of Romani women in Ukraine and abroad for over 20 years. As the Vice President of the Roma Women’s Fund “Chirikli,” she ensures equal rights and opportunities for Romani women, particularly within the Romani community.
“Everything starts with family and community. This topic is very close to me because I am a woman and was born into a traditional Romani family. But I was luckier than many other Romani women. My parents, who were human rights activists, had more progressive views on upbringing. So, I had more opportunities for education, self-expression, and voicing my opinion… even in the conservative community I lived in,” shared my interlocutor.
This human rights advocate was born in Izmail and holds a higher pedagogical education. After university, she continued her education by participating in Council of Europe programs for Romani youth. One of her initial significant projects was related to seeking justice for Holocaust victims. Under the guidance of Anna Verhovska, a young Romani leader, she learned “diplomacy in working with different people at different levels.” Among other women leaders who influenced Zola’s development are gender experts Olena Suslova and Larisa Kobelianska. She speaks warmly of them, stating that they are heroines for Ukraine and they are the ones who made Zola who she is.
Zola is fluent in Ukrainian, Russian, Romani, and English, and conversational in everyday French. She deeply loves Kyiv, but she also feels at home in Strasbourg, Budapest, and Warsaw.
As a human rights advocate, she represents the interests of Ukrainian Roma in the European Parliament, the United Nations, the OSCE, and the Council of Europe. No matter the country or the person she interacts with, whether it’s a Member of the European Parliament or a district school director, Zola always remembers that she is a Romani woman, and she never stops being one.
“My father was always concerned: What will the Romani community say if he allows his wife to travel to another city alone?”
“At the beginning of our conversation, you mentioned that you were ‘allowed more’ than other Romani women…”
“It’s about Romani family traditions. For instance, Romani women are not allowed to visit other cities or countries… without an escort. Today, we seek out talented girls from different parts of Ukraine, invite them for education, and strive to develop their activism. However, we often encounter a barrier – the need for an escort. I know a wonderful girl from Zhytomyr, but she can’t even come to Kyiv by herself.”
“…I remember when my mother would attend events, my father was always worried about what the Romani community would say if he let his wife go alone.”
“Romani women also can’t be more active than men. Or they need to be together. And that’s equally difficult. As a result, it’s a big challenge for Romani girls to receive an education. Early marriages are also an issue… which often leads Romani girls to drop out of school during their teenage years.”
“You touched upon the painful topic of multiple discrimination – being a woman, being Romani, and being young…”
“The ‘Chirikli’ Fund works extensively with girls from impoverished Romani families. Typically, these are talented children, as they need to have a strong memory, attention, and cleverness due to their lack of education. If you can’t read, you must memorize everything well.”
“But what future do they have? One 13-year-old girl doesn’t attend school… due to document issues: she lacks a birth certificate and a medical card. Therefore, she didn’t go to school. She learned to read and write at a Christian school at the local church. Now, she collects scrap metal to earn some money. What awaits her, uneducated and without documents? Early marriage at around 16? There’s a high probability that she will end up in a traditional Romani family, where she won’t have the right to vote and won’t have time for self-development. If she has children, as a young mother, she won’t be eligible for social benefits. Furthermore, her children will also lack documents… Essentially, from childhood, this girl doesn’t exist in our state’s eyes. Society will only see her as an illiterate Romani girl. And this girl will repeatedly fall victim to multiple discrimination.”
“On the other hand, women without financial means, lacking strong social skills and knowledge, often become easy targets. From scammers looking to deceive them to police officers who, due to their prejudices, might refuse to provide assistance. Discrimination is what Romani women will face constantly, no matter where they go.”
“We’ve needed to break this cycle for a long time…”
“The first thing that breaks the cycle of discrimination is documentation and education. It’s exactly this that changes people’s lives.”
“Also, working with parents is important. There are different types of people. Some understand the value of education, while others don’t even try to send their children to school. Or when the first problems arise, they quickly give up, telling their children, ‘Well, don’t go… what’s there for you to do?'”
“We’ve also been implementing a mediation system in Ukraine for seven years – where mediators work between Romani communities and state representatives. These are not always Romani individuals, but they are definitely people whom Roma trust. Mediators help resolve various issues: documentation, employment, overcoming discrimination, conflict resolution. It’s mostly social mediation, not legal.”
“Mediators work extensively with families, explaining that being educated doesn’t mean you stop being Roma. I admit that fear still prevails among Roma – that if you hold a certain position, you become ‘less Roma’.”
“Systemic work with Ukrainian communities also makes a difference. We have a great example in Pereiaslav-Khmelnytskyi. All the kids attend school. Parents work and try to pay for various extracurricular activities like foreign languages and sports. If you look at Romani schoolchildren from Pereiaslav, they are already different from their peers living in worse conditions and poorer families.”
“And this is where the state should step in: how not to lose children whom parents don’t have the opportunity to take care of? For example, propose a program for children from the poorest families to attend extracurricular activities.”
“It’s not about another national program that won’t have budgetary funds for implementation. It’s enough to fund two directions at the local level – employment and education. For instance, provide professional courses for the poorest population segments, help with job searches so they can earn a salary and contribute taxes.”
“At the same time, work with employers, primarily to eliminate their fear of hiring Roma. Employers should see responsible people who want to work.”
“Just relying on Romani mediators or Romani NGOs won’t bring about systemic change. It’s an unhealthy approach for the state to expect that NGOs will do everything for them. And this doesn’t just apply to solving Romani issues. Sometimes I don’t understand why we have state bodies if, for the most part, everything is done by non-governmental organizations and international donors.”
“THE STATE’S UNDERSTANDING OF THE PROBLEM DOESN’T NECESSARILY MEAN WILLINGNESS TO SOLVE IT”
“Since we’ve touched upon the topic of the state’s responsibility and Romani communities, could you identify the main points of connection and misunderstandings?”
“I’ll mention a few positive developments, as unfortunately, there are many more problems. Back in 2013, the National Roma Strategy was adopted. It was the desired signal from the state that it recognizes the issues faced by Ukrainian Roma. Later, in collaboration with the Coalition of Roma Organizations, OSCE, the International Renaissance Foundation, and other organizations, we lobbied for the creation of an Interagency Coordination Group. This happened in 2015. Such a group was formed under the Cabinet of Ministers, chaired by the then-Minister of Social Policy, Pavlo Rozenko. During the first meeting, Rozenko was already familiar with the situation of Roma in Ukraine. So, when the tragic events happened in Loshchynivka, he promptly provided directives on how to halt the escalation of the conflict and address the consequences.”
“Positively, five Romani representatives joined this Interagency Group. Even though our progress is slow overall, at least it’s progress. We need to find the positive aspects somewhere,” Zola smiles.
“The most frustrating aspect is that the Ministry of Culture, which is responsible for protecting and integrating the Romani community and national minorities as a whole, doesn’t have significant influence over other ministries. The letters and appeals they send to government bodies often go unnoticed.
Even as the deputy of this group, I can’t resolve many issues and discuss them with Pavlo Rozenko. So, the state’s openness to the problem doesn’t necessarily mean readiness to solve it.
“During the events in Loshchynivka, Ukraine and the world were stirred, particularly by the decision of the village council regarding the eviction of the Romani community…”
“Throughout the years of ‘Chirikli’ activity, we often faced misunderstandings with city councils about how to respond to certain issues. Loshchynivka was perhaps the saddest experience of local community decisions.
Another example is the Kominternivsky District in the Odessa region. Locating the city mayor at his workplace is nearly impossible. And without him, no decisions are made. This led to over a year of Romani resettled children not attending school.
Arranging a meeting with the school director was also ‘out of reach.’ So, we went to the educational institution without notice. The director mentioned he was unprepared for our meeting and that Romani children’s issues were new to him. However, he promised the children would study. Nevertheless, the school administration sent their parents for various documents. Although during our meeting, I called the Ministry of Education and Science, and the director communicated with a government representative to promptly and painlessly address this matter.
Three weeks passed, and out of the six children, three were finally accepted into the school. And this success was due to the incredible efforts of Romani mediator Maxim Dzhuma and the Romani Rights Center. We continue to fight for the right to education for other children.
In the end, the director said: ‘If you can ensure that parents of other non-Romani children won’t confront me, then I’ll admit Romani children to the school.'”
This is a concerning signal: school leadership is constantly afraid of potential conflicts between Romani and non-Romani people. Hence, they do nothing.
I understand that the country is in a state of war, facing complex social situations, and a low economic level. Because of these factors, conflicts can easily erupt out of nowhere. But for some reason, one local council is willing to help with simplified document procedures and getting children into education, while another simply shrugs off the responsibility.
We have other examples too: cases where a local council wants to do something, but the Romani community itself is not always active. For instance, the Pereyaslav-Khmelnytskyi District Administration is open to Romani issues. However, they lack a Romani leader or organization that could strengthen cooperation between the state and the Romani community. As a result, the state’s inquiries often receive no response from the Romani side.
I’d like to highlight one more crucial point. If there’s even one person at the local government level who wants to help, you can be sure that results will follow.
“It saddens me that we are often perceived as parasites of society. And for some reason, it’s forgotten that among the Roma, there are many people who work in various positions, in different professions, who pay taxes, and who help other people, not just Roma, that Roma boys are dying in the ATO zone.
To overcome such strong hostility towards Roma, it takes more than ten or twenty years.
A month ago, in Transcarpathia, we conducted a training for teachers. The stereotypes about Roma children and their parents that educators have heard are unbelievable! I addressed the teachers: ‘How can you expect children to come to your classes if they feel negative attitudes? What desire to learn can there be in such a school?’
And in response, I heard: ‘No, it’s not like that. We treat them normally. But they steal! Can you leave your wallet on the table? Because if you leave the classroom, it won’t be there anymore.’ I was relieved when teachers from another school in Uzhhorod intervened in the conversation and said that this was not true.”
It’s quite different with university lecturers, professors, and candidates of sciences – their level of interest in the Roma topic is very high. They aimed to have more information to pass on to their students, to overcome the stereotypes that exist in society.
By the way, this year I entered the postgraduate program at Zaporizhzhia National University. The subject of my research relates to social policy.
I found out about the entrance exam almost accidentally, so I practically jumped onto the train’s last carriage. The English exam lasted a long time, but even the instructors didn’t want to let me go. They were curious to learn about my advocacy experience in defending the rights of Roma at the international level. And it pleased me that they had an open-minded approach toward us.
“IF WE SEE THAT PEOPLE ARE OPEN TO US, WE OPEN UP EVEN MORE”
– In a recent report by the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance, I noticed a trend that Roma individuals often don’t acknowledge their Romani identity. They feel safer identifying as members of another nationality…
– Yes, unfortunately. Roma migrants, with whom I spoke in a small town, were so afraid that the community wouldn’t accept them that they told everyone… that they were Greeks. I addressed them in Romani, they understood me and responded in Ukrainian, yet they still didn’t admit it.
Only after some time, when they felt they could trust, did they explain: they fear persecution, they’re afraid they won’t be accepted, that their children will be insulted in school…
This often happens when a child is called a dirty Gypsy at school. When they switch to another educational institution, they don’t readily admit they are Roma.
My son also wasn’t spared from these insults. For seven years, studying at school, he proudly said he was Roma. But somehow, at the beginning of the eighth grade, his classmates began to tease him. They called him “Gypsy” or “black.” Eventually, the boys got into fights. This repeated a few times. I went to the principal to discuss the situation. She quickly understood the problem, invited the boys for a talk. But she didn’t scold them. She gathered them in a circle and asked how they felt about people of different nationalities… This conversation clearly had an impact, because my son wasn’t bothered anymore. Moreover, I started conducting tolerance lessons for 8th graders once a week in that school.
– What would you say to someone who isn’t personally familiar with Roma and knows nothing about them except for news or stories from neighbors?
– We, Ukrainian Roma, feel like citizens of our state, Ukraine. We are not different or unlike other people. We also have two hands, two legs; we share the same values and dream of providing the best for our children, just like any other parents.
There’s no need to emphasize differences; on the contrary, we should seek something that unites us. Roma, just like other Ukrainian citizens, supported the Maidan movement. Remember how in a very poor village, Roma who couldn’t afford bread themselves collected funds for volunteers. Or when Roma boys from Transcarpathia volunteered to join the armed forces in the ATO (Anti-Terrorist Operation), and some of them returned home in coffins. I would like people to know about this as well.
Yes, we have a different ethnic background; we have our own culture, traditions, and language that we love dearly and strive to preserve and develop. Maybe we need more time to trust people and not close ourselves off. But if everyone who writes hurtful words knew about the long history of persecution that Roma have faced, perhaps they would understand why we tend to lead an isolated way of life. If we see that people are open to us, we become even more open.
At a recent meeting of the OSCE Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights, one of the participants pointed out that Roma are a reflection of the society they live in. This statement seems very true. Therefore, all of us should strive to become better.
Photo by Valeriya Mezentseva, Human Rights Information Centre
