Illegal and detrimental to the health of their inhabitants, settlements of Roma who do not speak the local language and face strict barriers to employment: these are the common factors upon which the municipality of Strasbourg and the Darnytsia administration in Kyiv met to learn from each other’s experiences.
The authorities in Strasbourg have been addressing Roma issues since 2008 and are already beginning to see the results of their efforts. Meanwhile, the recent war in Ukraine has forced many Roma to leave their homes in search of a better life in Kyiv.
In an effort to find solutions for the complex situation of Roma in the Darnytsia district of the Ukrainian capital, along with local activists and with the support of ROMED 2, Gennadiy Sintsov, the head of the Darnytsia administration, conducted a study trip to Strasbourg from March 30 to April 1, 2015. The main points of the visit included sharing experiences, site visits, and meetings with the deputy mayor of Strasbourg responsible for solidarity policy, as well as other interested parties.
We conducted interviews with Gennadiy Sintsov, the head of the Darnytsia district administration in Kyiv, and Mari-Dominique Dresse, the deputy mayor responsible for solidarity policy, to learn more about the situation of Roma in both municipalities, planned and implemented actions, and the mutually beneficial exchange of experiences.
Gennadiy Sintsov – Head of the Darnytsia District Administration in Kyiv.
ROMED: 1. Could you briefly describe the situation of Roma in the Darnytsia district of Kyiv? How does the war in Eastern Ukraine affect their lives?
G.S.: In the Darnytsia district, Roma actually live in very poor conditions, but this is not related to the war. The city authorities have not paid attention to Roma issues, and now the situation has worsened. Due to the war, Roma issues have taken a back seat. Therefore, we need people for whom Roma issues will be a priority. It’s important to understand that other issues should be addressed as well, and one of these issues is the problems faced by the Roma.
ROMED: What motivates you to improve the living conditions of Roma in Darnytsia?
G.S.: I believe that when we work correctly with the Roma, we will first and foremost improve conditions for the residents of the Darnytsia district. Whether we like it or not, the spontaneous Roma settlements are not safe, especially for Roma children and adults. Therefore, by addressing these issues, I’m addressing the issues of the whole district. And again, if we don’t give Roma the opportunity to learn the Ukrainian language and get employed, based on their current conditions, we will see an increase in crime and deteriorating relations with the local population. If there are people who have come to our city, we need to create the most favorable conditions for them to feel like part of society and engage in Ukrainian community life. Based on what we saw and heard in Strasbourg, I would like to replicate this experience in our district.
In general, every person has the right to a decent life and access to medical services, and we must ensure the observance of these rights. This fully applies to Roma as well. It so happened that Roma have been around me since childhood, so I know a lot about Roma life, and I have seen that many Roma work hard and productively. I believe that there is a biased attitude towards Roma in our country, and this negative attitude needs to be changed.
ROMED: A working group was established in the Darnytsia district as part of the ROMED-2 program. How do you see the collaboration with this group? What are the main priorities that need to be addressed?
G.S.: We are only at the initial stage. Currently, we are trying to summarize the experiences of different countries and regions within Ukraine. For example, the experience in the Zakarpattia region differs from our own experience. I believe that the most important task of this group is to gather information about the issues faced by Roma in the Darnytsia district. It’s necessary to consolidate and analyze all the gathered information, and together with the help of NGOs and donors, attempt to address these issues. Is the work of this group productive? I believe it is. Even this visit is one of the results of the group’s work. A representative from the Council of Europe visited us and learned more about our work and its outcomes, which is why I think the Council of Europe supported our visit to Strasbourg.
ROMED: How is the dialogue between the working group and your administration structured to develop important initiatives for the Roma in the Darnytsia district?
G.S.: In our administration, we have established a special working group for Roma issues. This group holds regular meetings with Roma mediators and community representatives. Together, they plan their work. There is also an individual responsible for coordinating the group’s work, reporting to me and our colleagues on the progress.
ROMED: What is your position?
G.S.: I am the head of the Darnytsia District Administration in Kyiv.
ROMED: Are there any obstacles in implementing initiatives aimed at improving the lives of Roma?
G.S.: As I mentioned before, there is a biased attitude among the local population towards Roma living nearby. People think that Roma steal, spread diseases, don’t want to work or study. Therefore, we need to put effort into changing this attitude. This is the first step we need to take.
Another important point is that in our country, it often seems that there are more pressing problems than those of the Roma. We need to solve our national issues first, internal matters, end the war, provide social housing for every Ukrainian. So, all these matters stand in the way of addressing Roma issues. But I believe that if we don’t pay attention to Roma problems now and leave them in the same state, then later we will need much more effort and resources to solve these issues.
ROMED: What were your expectations from this visit? Did they come true?
G.S.: I didn’t expect that there are people in the Strasbourg administration who are so deeply and thoroughly engaged in Roma issues. I thought that this is just one aspect of their extensive work. It turns out that there are designated individuals within the administration who are well-versed in Roma problems. I was surprised to learn that there are people who personally know many Roma in temporary settlements, regularly communicate with them, and are not confined to their offices. Our officials tend to stay within the boundaries of their offices. In Strasbourg, however, Roma issues are tackled directly in their places of residence, not in offices. This is very pleasing to me. I believe that the significant achievements of the Strasbourg municipality and the Council of Europe are the human and financial resources directed towards solving Roma issues. Unfortunately, we don’t yet have such capabilities. I was pleasantly surprised by the individual approach to each family. That’s my most vivid impression from the trip. What I saw exceeded all my expectations.
ROMED: How do you envision your further activities in the Darnytsia district after this visit?
G.S.: I believe we need to take several steps in our district. Firstly, we need to find mediators who will help us better understand the issues of the Roma; we need people who understand their language. The main problem is communication – Roma don’t understand us.
Secondly, we need to conduct a sanitation cleanup of the Roma settlement. I saw clean Roma settlements in Strasbourg. The garbage is removed, people take care of the area they live in, and this is an example for our future work in Roma settlements in Kyiv.
The next step should be Ukrainian language courses for Hungarian-speaking Roma. Roma living in our district should understand the local population. This will help avoid many conflicts, be useful in communication with authorities, police, administration, and aid them in seeking more qualified jobs. Children should also learn the Ukrainian language, and we can organize different age groups for this purpose.
And the third step is medical examinations for Roma in informal settlements as preventive measures. This will help change the stereotype among the local population that Roma settlements are breeding grounds for diseases. At least once every six months, we should conduct X-ray examinations and blood tests for hepatitis and other diseases.
These three steps are our minimum program, which can serve as a starting point for broader programs for the Roma.
Thank you!
ROMED: What is your position in the Strasbourg City Administration, and what are your responsibilities regarding the Roma and travelers?
I am responsible for solidarity policies, which encompass a wide range of social policies focusing on individuals in vulnerable situations and/or homelessness. This includes certain groups of Roma, among others. The “Roma Mission” [within the Strasbourg City Administration] was created under my leadership two years ago.
ROMED: Can you tell us about projects related to the Roma that have been implemented in the city of Strasbourg?
Strasbourg has always practiced specific measures regarding the reception of travelers. According to the current legislation, we have specially equipped sites as well as standardized settlements – one of which is quite large. These settlements were established to gradually replace unsatisfactory living conditions and thereby improve living conditions for individuals within their territory, by providing them with standard housing.
Indeed, over the last few years, we have witnessed a new phenomenon: the arrival of poor Roma migrants who settle in the city and create what could be called settlements. They first appeared in Strasbourg in 2000. Since 2008, we have been dealing with such settlements, and that’s when we were chosen for this work, and I took responsibility for this direction. We decided to address this issue born out of poverty and harsh, undignified living conditions that clearly didn’t ensure basic human rights.
ROMED: Since when did the city of Strasbourg start investing in and implementing projects to improve the living conditions of the Roma, and what factor was decisive in taking up such commitment?
It all started in 2008 when we discovered these settlements. We solved the issue through a pragmatic approach, establishing real dialogue with representatives of authority. Thus, we managed to practically implement social mediation, which allowed us, in the course of one year, to establish dynamic communication and contacts, along with various state services, local NGOs, and different structures of the city of Strasbourg, to listen to people living in settlements.
After a year of experiments, the city of Strasbourg developed a project for temporary housing to provide these people with an opportunity to change their lives if they wish to stay in Strasbourg.
The preparation took a certain amount of time, and in 2011, the first of three such residential facilities was opened for about 100 individuals who lived in settlements. This established place continues to function today.
In this way, individuals who choose such a place are opting for a path of integration. The purpose of creating such a furnished residence is to prepare people for transition. With the support provided by social services, which operate constantly in such locations, these individuals, including Roma, have the opportunity to seek their own path in their new lives.
We provide them with some funds, of course, but they must develop their own projects with a focus on the future. This approach yielded results – some Roma found jobs and left the furnished residence, moving into apartments.
RO-MED: You mentioned that having contact with the Roma population and listening to them is significant, and this relates to the question of personal involvement. How is this ensured for the Roma community? How are Roma involved in the decision-making process?
For Roma who do not reside in such furnished temporary locations, achieving this is more challenging. However, for those who live in these settlements, we established a “social space” from the very beginning, which allows for monthly meetings to discuss various issues concerning the Roma and hear their proposals.
Certainly, it was a learning process for us. The first such meeting was chaotic and difficult to control. Nevertheless, gradually, people understood that this “social space” was a place where they could address their daily problems, bring their concerns about the future, and employment was often discussed during these meetings.
RO-MED: Our meeting today is due to an educational visit from a delegation of the Darnytskyi District Administration of Kyiv, Ukraine. In your opinion, what is the value of such a visit?
It’s always interesting to meet people who have different experiences in the practical study of migration in Europe. This topic is a reality for many, if not all, European countries. It primarily concerns the migration of impoverished individuals, which places people in very challenging situations. Access to services is not equal in every country, and the scale of this phenomenon may also differ. Nevertheless, comparing experiences and actions leads to the fact that people travel 2000 km to study our experience, and it also prompts us to reconsider certain aspects of our work. I believe that certain elements of your experience can also be useful for our visitors.
ROMED: During our conversation, you likely also discussed the obstacles you faced in implementing such projects. What were these obstacles in Strasbourg?
The biggest difficulties are not material at all. It’s rather the pervasive prejudice against the Roma, which makes the initial steps, the first contact with employers, landlords, and other service providers very challenging. This prejudice still exists, I believe, all across Europe. It’s hard to imagine that someone from the Roma community is just the same as you and me.
ROMED: This brings us to the question of the majority of the local population’s reaction to the projects you are implementing.
People’s reaction was stronger when “wild” settlements appeared in Strasbourg. Residents were generally irritated by the presence of the impoverished community as neighbors, and on the other hand, human rights advocates criticized us for the lack of government action.
Since 2008, we decided not to advertise our projects too much – to avoid inflamed public statements that could harm the project’s continuation. But we managed to persist in realizing our idea.
In 2012, the government published an interdepartmental circular concerning the management of illegal settlements, with principles that we had already integrated over the previous four years in Strasbourg. This was the moment when what we were doing was brought to the forefront and discussion became more public. Today, it’s even more complicated because within the Local Officials Council, we have representatives from the National Front who are highly oppositional to the support we provide for the Roma. Today, these are reactions related to certain political moments, but it’s not a local level discussion, and I hope it remains that way.
ROMED: The initiative we are discussing began in 2008. How do you evaluate this project now? Are its results promising? What prevails – the positive or the negative?
The developed measures have achieved their goal – providing assistance to the Roma in accessing education, obtaining medical services. All of this is part of our daily work. It also concerns the first steps of the Roma towards normal work life, as well as normalizing contacts with landlords. For these reasons, we believe that a pragmatic approach to the problem makes sense, and this proves those who accuse us of doing too much for this community, that the Roma are “capable of integrating,” as they say. For example, I am confident that with the right approach, these individuals will take the same steps in society as everyone else.
ROMED: What advice would you give to other municipalities that would like to implement projects similar to those in Strasbourg?
The most optimal approach for everyone would be to develop a project deeply rooted in local realities. One needs to be pragmatic, starting with an analysis of the current state of affairs with the Roma community, and using an approach of integration, not assimilation. Taking into account that those on whom our actions are directed are full-fledged individuals, with certain know-how, most of them have qualifications in one field or another.
Authorities should believe that these individuals can continue to live normal lives as citizens, wherever they are, as long as the surrounding environment allows them to do so. Truly, when you find yourself on the street with no means, you spend your day thinking about where you will eat, where you will sleep, or what you will do when the police might come – it’s not the best conditions for building a dignified future or even dreaming about it.
The first thing that needs to be done is to improve the living conditions of people, earn their trust, and provide them with minimal resources that will allow them to cope with the difficult situation. And those who work with the Roma should act solely within the legal field in their work and be consistent and persistent. All of this will undoubtedly bring success to both the Roma community and the entire society as a whole, where the Roma are adapting.
Thank you!
